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If you read the Daily Express you will have read, today, Martin Samuel's short piece on MK.(page 101). For those who haven't read it I won't reproduce it all, but the last paragraph reads: "He (Koppel) might also like to consider the name of the club he currently stewards. It's Wimbledon. And it should stay there."
TW
- Saturday, January 05, 2002 at 11:18:26 (PST)
Jimmy Kimble, I only make effort where it's worthwhile.
Brighton Womble (brightonwomble@hotmail.com)
- Saturday, January 05, 2002 at 10:59:06 (PST)
Concentrate on getting your MP's to sign the EDM presented by Roger Casale, badgering the sports minister (Richard Caborne) for a Commons statement on the matter, write to the papers, keep phoning radio stations. The arbitration process does not operate in a vacuum, so plenty of pressure applied would be the most productive use of your efforts.
Brighton Womble (brightonwomble@hotmail.com)
- Saturday, January 05, 2002 at 10:55:27 (PST)
Wiltshire, first time I've been referred to as a man of principle ;-) I currently only get paid for the social work job and earn infrequently from my writing (not the PR -and, no, I don't work for Brunswick!). As far as leaving that old job goes, I was an agency worker which was admittedly easier. However, as I have always maintained, there's no reason why F/T workers shouldn't resign, but only when they have another job.
Funny, though, not one person who argues against me on the F/T point has never taken my point into consideration.
Brighton Womble (brightonwomble@hotmail.com)
- Saturday, January 05, 2002 at 10:51:12 (PST)
With Pompey getting thrashed at home and Rix under pressure - does this mean we will soon have a new head coach? :-)
Edinburgh Don
- Saturday, January 05, 2002 at 10:27:47 (PST)
I see people are still intent on the 'schoolyard stuff' For Christ's sake - arguing over who is and isn't a 'true supporter' and who should or shouldn't resign isn't helpful! Come on, stop the rucking and decide how we are going to turn these gits over. Like TW, I think that writing to the panel would make a good impression. Anyone have any more constructive ideas?
Edinburgh Don
- Saturday, January 05, 2002 at 10:21:27 (PST)
Agree - most important thing is to show we care. Some do it by letters. Some do it by leafletting. Some do it on a bus. Some do it in front of a bus! Doesn't matter which - as long as people realise we will not let the club die. How many 'home' games left? Nine?
Ronan (rgwarde@ukgateway.net)
- Saturday, January 05, 2002 at 10:02:56 (PST)
Ronan, no, nothing was directly meant for you. I was responding to your thoughts that the panel would get annoyed. I still believe it is better to write than let them think we don't care. If Koppel feels that he can challenge any result because fans have written protesting, then surely he only proves our point? Should he decide to go to court then at sometime it would be explained to a judge (you have to do this as most of the silks are out of touch with everyday life), that supporters care.
TW
- Saturday, January 05, 2002 at 09:42:39 (PST)
Brighton, thanks for your reply. OK I concede you are a man of principle and therefore can say what you are saying with a clear conscience but,not meaning to decry what you did,it seems you have 3 jobs.Did that influence your decision as you had other source of income to fall back on?And if you read my final sentence I totally agree part time employees should pack it in. Harder for full timers though who need the income.
wiltshire don
- Saturday, January 05, 2002 at 09:23:14 (PST)
TW - not sure if your post about writing to the panel was aimed at me. If you want to write to them - write to them - nobody is stopping you. As I said it was 'in my opinion' it may not be a good thing. Especially as the reason we have an arbitration situation is because Mr. Koppel and his laywers believe that the FL league panel was overly influenced into acting unconstitutionally - esp Mr Richmond. Apologies if you thought I was putting you down - didn't mean to - just giving an opinion. I'm glad that you will do something - the more the merrier.
Ronan (rgwarde@ukgateway.net)
- Saturday, January 05, 2002 at 09:06:05 (PST)
Given the standard of your writing on this guestbook, I bet you don't get much of that freelance work, Brighton Womble!
Jimmy Kimble
- Saturday, January 05, 2002 at 08:36:36 (PST)
Well said BW and I do agree with some of Wiltshire Dons sentiments, if the employees working within the club shop are HAPPY and feel SATISFIED at selling merchandise to all and sundry thus assisting, supporting, Koppell to line his pockets and help pay for the PR men the Solicitors and anyone else that will assist him with his lying campaign it is a matter of principle and for their conscience and as one of them has stated at least he gets a free ticket for the game so I see where they are coming from, I personally could not do it and I will gladly "PAY FOR YOUR TICKET FOR THE REST OF THIS SEASON" cause as Koppell has already stated Wimbledon or whatever the name will be will be playing at a 15k stadium in Milton Keynes as from August of this year
Wibbly Don
- Saturday, January 05, 2002 at 07:02:52 (PST)
Mr Wiltshire Sir, I mean a little understanding of those who keep asking WFC Ltd employees to resign. Why can't it be understood that (we) see it as a matter of principle? I work as a senior residential social worker a freelance writer and for a PR consultancy researching new business. As a matter of fact, at one of the placements I worked at through my old agency, I did refuse to go back because I wasn't happy with the practice. As for my current situtation, I do believe that if I was presented with malpractice and mistreatment of clients or customers on the scale of WFC Ltd, I would indeed walk. Why is that so difficult to do, particularly where a P/T job is concerned? As for what you said, Nick, I wish them to resign because there is such a thing as honour. They'll resign if the move goes through? Withdrawl of labour at that point is a little late in the day. WFC fans have historically been apathetic and self-centred creatures. The result has been that owners have been able to ride roughshod over their feelings. Discuss
Brighton Womble (brightonwomble@hotmail.com)
- Saturday, January 05, 2002 at 05:41:14 (PST)
Those who want the Club Shop workers to resign, can you please answer me some questions. Firstly, why does it annoy you that guys working in the Shop continue to do so? Why does it annoy you so much? Secondly, what are you achieving by continuing to get them to leave? How does this affect our fight against MK?! Thirdly, if the guys were to quit, and we stayed dawn south, they'd have thrown away jobs that they love doing for NO reason!! Them quitting will not stop us going to MK, which is the priority here. And finally, how can people say that these guys aren't real supporters by continuing to work in the shop?? Sorry, but you talk to these guys personally and you see what type of supporters they are.......amongst the most loyal and passionate WFC has. Sorry, but anyone continuing to ask these people to quit is using up time and energy in totally the wrong direction. Concentrate on what REALLY matters at the moment, OK???
Nick (nick.draper@tinyworld.co.uk)
- Saturday, January 05, 2002 at 03:26:17 (PST)
Just reread my latest email. I meant to say work for an employer not employee. But I expect those of you reading it know what I mean anyway!!!
wiltshire don
- Saturday, January 05, 2002 at 03:17:04 (PST)
The Real Hash, So you are the true supporter then are you because you have a Cup Final Shirt talking to a old man in a postcard are you. All these years I have put in loads of hours and mileage and all along I have not been a true fan!!!! FCUK!!!!! I thought around the cup final date your mum was cleaning your shitty nappy!!! Just the sort of stuff you keep writing on here!!!!! Give it a break will you, you have made your request to me and Paul, I have noted your comments and would really ask you to do more postcards instead!!!
Stuart Deacons (stuart@sdeacons.fsnet.co.uk)
- Saturday, January 05, 2002 at 02:58:28 (PST)
So what if Koppel claims the panel have been influenced by the fans. Surely that is better than having them think we don't care because we haven't written? And why is it some of you do nothing but knock other Wimbledon supporters? Please explain to me why your arguement is generally negative. let's be purposeful and constructive. And I notice that those of you calling for the resignation of club employees have ignored the suggestion that rather than Koppel any more money, you turn up but refuse to go into the game.
TW
- Saturday, January 05, 2002 at 02:24:46 (PST)
Brighton,when you say a little understanding won't go amiss, are you referring to the people who are screaming at club employees to resign or understanding for the club employees? I suspect it is the former and that being the case would answer me the following( no point asking Real Hash as I assume you haven't reached the point where the hard facts of life trouble you yet).I have made this point before but will repeat it. How many of those critising club employees such as Paul ( and I don't know Paul personally so I'm not sticking up for him or anyone else)work for a employee and you don't agree with everything they do? Brighton, what do you do, does this apply to you and if so, why don't you RESIGN!!!! Don't tell other people to something unless you would do it yourself. Bills don't get paid by following a principle or your heart. Just think about these guys who may be out of a job if the MK thing comes off anything, Can't see much point keeping the shop open in Wimbledon once moved to MK as presumably no locals will want anything to do with the club anymore. So the club employees ain't going to have much to look forward to on that basis so why should they be pro MK as some of you suggest. And I am not taking sides ,just looking at plain simple facts removing emotive issues which I know may be difficult. One final thing I would say.What I have said applies to full time employees, part time employees I agree should think about quitting and supporting the campaign
wiltshire don
- Saturday, January 05, 2002 at 02:20:56 (PST)
yes thats it.......I'm on one of them by the way (young bloke chattin to old guy in pub-----I'm the young one!). Send a couple to some mates, or family....spread the word. Wimbledon fc belongs in Wimbledon. Just as importantly...BOYCOTT THE CLUB SHOP, THE CLUB OFFICIAL PROGRAMME, AND ALL WFC MERCHANDISE.
The Real Hash
all WFC employees who claim to be 'fans' should resign....or IMO u aint a true supporter., - Friday, January 04, 2002 at 16:23:46 (PST)
By postcards do you mean those that were given out at Fans United. Btw although that is my surname me and Godfrey are not the same person.
peterboro don (kornhead_2001@hotmail.com)
- Friday, January 04, 2002 at 15:30:40 (PST)
leave the club shop
Roj
- Friday, January 04, 2002 at 15:10:42 (PST)
Writing to the panel is a bad idea IMO. It will just annoy them. No need to write to them. Send in your postcard.
Ronan (rgwarde@ukgateway.net)
- Friday, January 04, 2002 at 14:54:07 (PST)
Stop telling this poor geezer to leave the club shop!
Jools
- Friday, January 04, 2002 at 14:12:54 (PST)
Dear Koppel, Gjelstin, Roekke, Davis, Thorley, selhurst PA, official programme sellers, club shop employees and any other person(s) who work for Wimbledon FC......RESIGN, RESIGN, RESIGN AND ONCE AGAIN....RESIGN. Yours sincerely, Godfrey.
Godfrey
I have written enough letters THANK YOU VERY MUCH, dont write to the arbitration panel though....if they rule in our (ie. not the clubs- that includes ALL its employees) favour..Koppel can say that their decision was swayed by our letters and he could find an excuse to go to court. SO DO NOT WRITE TO ANYBODY ON THE ARBITRATION PANEL. - Friday, January 04, 2002 at 12:49:17 (PST)
For crying out loud. What's it all about? Do you want a club? Write / write and write again. Come on get those letters out to David Dein, Douglas Craig and Charles Hollander. Come on, you've given all your gob, now put into writing. I will take all your bullshit but that won't save our club. Put your b**ll**ks where your mouth is and write!
TW
- Friday, January 04, 2002 at 12:37:56 (PST)
or resign from the club shop. even better idea.
Jon
- Friday, January 04, 2002 at 11:22:50 (PST)
Or, don't write to the panel. Much better idea.
Ronan (rgwarde@ukgateway.net)
- Friday, January 04, 2002 at 08:36:38 (PST)
Please remember when you write to the panel that Mr. Ko-pull (as heard on radio) may turn around and say afterwards that the panel was influenced by all the letters from Dons fans.
2Shirts (webmaster@sowimbledon.com)
- Friday, January 04, 2002 at 07:28:36 (PST)
Quick question, and don't take it the wrong way, but how can someone who is pro-MK not be a true fan? How can someone who works for the club not b a true fan? And plaese answer without using CK lies (which is what I would say).
2Shirts (webmaster@sowimbledon.com)
In Londons Fair City, - Friday, January 04, 2002 at 07:07:01 (PST)
BW, of course it's frustrating but taking it out on fellow supporters gets us nowhere. Ed Don, that looks a good idea. If anyone needs the names and addresses to write to I believe these are correct: (1)David Dein, Arsenal F.C., Highbury, London N5 1BU. (2) Douglas Craig, York City F.C. Bootham Crescent, York, YO30 7AQ. (3) Charles Hollander QC, Brick Court Chambers, 7-8 Essex Street, London. WC2R 3LD. Mine are in the post to-day.
TW
- Friday, January 04, 2002 at 05:51:15 (PST)
All this is meaningless if the arbitration panel rule against it. Stop the infighting, just until the end of the month if you like, In the meantime, instead of using up your energy moaning about people who work for the club, get writing to the members of the panel. We are not going to get anywhere by panicking and continuing witchunts for programme sellers. I HAVE AN IDEA ; create a very simple word document letter to the arbitration panel, then e-mail it to everyone in your address book and encourage them to do the same. Keep it simple, direct and short. All your email pal has to do is insert their own name and address, say which team they support, print it and bung it in an envelope. It's important to show that the opinion of football fans everywhere is against them. It would surely at least make an impression?
Edinburgh Don
- Friday, January 04, 2002 at 05:21:45 (PST)
Because this whole thing is frustrating. What do you expect. For many it's not an easy thing to keep their emotions in check at this point in time. Perhaps a little understanding for those people wouldn't go a miss.
Brighton Womble (brightonwomble@hotmail.com)
- Friday, January 04, 2002 at 05:10:34 (PST)
All these people having a go at those who work for the club, puzzle me. Why are they screaming at those who are taking money from the club and watching the games for free? Where's the arguement when you are paying for your ticket? If there is so much against putting money into the club then why not turn up at a match but refuse to go in? That way you show your solidarity but without paying a penny to the club.
TW
- Friday, January 04, 2002 at 04:37:39 (PST)
have to say I'm with Hash/Yorkie on this one....no true supporter can possibly work for the club now
Mossig
- Friday, January 04, 2002 at 04:03:40 (PST)
Peter - we have to wait. Be patient, it will sort itself out. Hash and Yorkie - do either you or I work for the club? No. Is it really ANY of our business? No. Don't you think that these guys have had enough in the 6 months they've had to put up with name-calling, doubts on their character and general slagging? Yes. Can we drop this? You know who to write to. Write.
Rowley Birkin QC
- Friday, January 04, 2002 at 03:26:43 (PST)
The problem we have now, is that I have 9 home league matches to watch my team - ever.
Does that not strike fear and panic in to your heart?
10 games, then the club dies. Can we afford to wait and see what happens at the arbitration?
Peter Bowles (peter@wisa.org.uk)
Wimbledon, Wimbledon Wimbledon - Friday, January 04, 2002 at 03:10:54 (PST)
Why the panic? What's changed? We knew the Club was going to arbitration, we know what CK is like. The only difference between today and last week is we now know to whom to send our letters. Instead of being on here slagging co-supporters get your pen and paper out and send off those letters. Let's point out the danger of bending the rules for one club,(remember Luton have already had the same proposal turned down). It would open a can of worms. Stay focused and constructive and we will win this yet.
TW
- Friday, January 04, 2002 at 02:48:50 (PST)
I agree with Hash
Jimmy
- Friday, January 04, 2002 at 01:39:58 (PST)
also...why is the clock wrong?
mjs
- Thursday, January 03, 2002 at 17:40:45 (PST)
couldn't agree more with the last 2 posts. What do you say to that then Paul?
mjs
- Thursday, January 03, 2002 at 17:39:59 (PST)
After todays events, if you continue to work for WFC (that includes programme sellers, club shop employees, reg davis EVERYONE)the in my opinion you are a complete hypocrite (unless you are pro MK)and you are not a true fan. I don't care if you have been going since 1632, I don't care if you have 'seen more games than I have had hot dinners'......YOU ARE NOT A TRUE FAN. I don't for one minute suggest you quite immediately and put the living of you and your family at risk (if your WFC job is what pays the bills)....find a new job and then quit. But at the moment, you are working for CHARLES KOPPEL, and when Charles Koppel says 'WE want Wimbledon to play in MK', that WE includes YOU.
The Real Hash
- Thursday, January 03, 2002 at 16:04:49 (PST)
Anyone that is still working for WFC this weekend and going forward is no true fan of WFC. When will people wake up and realise that this is the death of a club. You will be a party to genocide (Yes the murder of the a large group of fans hopes & dreams!)
Hope it rests well on you....you make me sick!
Yorkie (matthew.york@btinternet.com)
- Thursday, January 03, 2002 at 14:49:38 (PST)
Some interesting postings of late. I would like to reply to one or two points most of which have followed on from my last posting. Wibbly, sorry regarding attendances I meant what the average was in our last season at Plough Lane NOT in the Premium League. I'm sure it was somwhere in the region of 7,500 so the point I was making was how could we expect to get much more than that back at Plough Lane when we are in a lower division.Also as far as knocking Real Hash's obvious passion that's the last thing I would do as such passion is the only thing that will keep us alive. As I said I sincerely hope he is right but I still stick to my view. Which leads me onto TW. One of your latest postings seem to follow through with what I have been saying.No good hearing about I've got some mates who will watch us back at Plough Lane... they are needed now.Hutch, nice view of the future building up a new fan base slowly over 10 years and certainly realistic but would that fit in with the Nogs business plan? And finally back to Real Hash.I have no intention of knocking your passion etc but you really must have a wider perpective.Certain individuals work at the club because it is a full time job to them and what they earn pays bills etc. So after today's news to hint they should quit is a little naive to say the least.
Couple of other things. On news it said the club had done market research which indicated not viable to return to Merton.Anyone know who carried out the research (in my job I am told such facts should always be supported by a proof source)and anyone seen it or am I being stupid and naive? Perhaps Charlie stood outside Wimbledon Station one night and asked the views of a couple of commuters!!! Also if the panel rule in favour of MK with go ahead from next season, what happens as far as the rest of this season is concerned? Do we keep going and hope that there could be a change of heart or give them a taste of what will happen next season ie stop going?
wiltshire don
- Thursday, January 03, 2002 at 14:42:33 (PST)
So what is your point now BW? Nobody has ever said that Koppell wouldn't try to pull a stunt. At the moment he has access to the press, tomorrow will the fans turn. If you really want to win you stay focused on your aim, not turn on your allies.
TW
- Thursday, January 03, 2002 at 13:12:46 (PST)
I believe CK said "IF" Wimbledon win the arbitration review. Does he know something that we don't or is he trying to twist arms? By pre-empting the decision he may have shot himself in the foot because it shows his arrogance and disregard for others to those that will make the ruling.
TW
- Thursday, January 03, 2002 at 11:39:36 (PST)
So, when are you lot finally going to see what's happening?
Brighton Womble (brightonwomble@hotmail.com)
- Thursday, January 03, 2002 at 11:35:26 (PST)
August 2002 Wimbledon FC V Whoever, playing in their 15,000 temporary stadium at Milton Keynes, as stated by Koppell today now what are you club supporters going to do now? the real fighting starts here and now to keep Wimbledon FC in London or is it time for all your usual excuses I like talking to the supporters etc.
Reality
- Thursday, January 03, 2002 at 10:28:08 (PST)
I presume you lot working for wimbledon fc will now resign in the light of todays events (after you have found a new job if it is essential ofcoarse)??
The Real Hash
- Thursday, January 03, 2002 at 10:24:06 (PST)
Hurrah! CK sets the date of our first home game in Milton Keynes as being next season. As in eight months time. I know, I think I'll sit on my rear and say nothing at the game on Saturday. NOT.
Ronan (rgwarde@ukgateway.net)
- Thursday, January 03, 2002 at 09:41:27 (PST)
Paul - surely giving away 10000 free tickets a game is speculating to later accumulate? - there are dozens of schools in Merton - hundreds in the surrounding areas of Surrey - we would not be stepping on anyone else's turf if we tried to tap into these markets would we? it is how businesses grow anyway. we would not get 10000 to turn up anyway but surely a long term marketing strategy should involve getting as many kids in as possible to see us before the other clubs get them - I don't think aiming for 500 new season ticket holders per year is an unreachable target - imagine 500 new season ticket holders per year for 10 years, slowly but surely our fan base will grow
Hutch
- Thursday, January 03, 2002 at 08:53:57 (PST)
Hutch, with regards to Sunderland giving out 10,000 free kids tickets they are also getting gates of 45,000 so it's about 25% with our gates of 8,000 that would mean about 2,000 ticktes and I would imagine that on speecific games we are not far off that. Dont forget as well that Ron Noades gets a fee for eevery person in the stadium that is if the ticket is paid for or not.
Paul Raymond (webmaster@itmustbedons.com)
Tooting, London England - Thursday, January 03, 2002 at 07:45:01 (PST)
Re: new fan base etc. Yes, we must start building up a new fan base - but of course WFC (Holdings) Limited have not done anything along these lines. I'm still waiting for the nice South African to tell me how WFC are targeting ethnic minorities (no, I'm not suggesting he's racist - he left the country as a child AFAIK). Hence the latest WISA ad/postcard campaign.
Ronan (rgwarde@ukgateway.net)
- Thursday, January 03, 2002 at 06:49:38 (PST)
TW and Edinburgh Don - the other London clubs as you say are established clubs with natural linear fanbases plus the premier league ones will always atrtract new fans. WFC have been a league club for 25 years which is only a quarter of the time most of the others have been league clubs for, during that time we have been slated by the press, moved from our natural home (half of our time in the league has been spent away from Merton) and done very little to attract people in what is a very competitive market. Football boomed in the 90's and in that time we were one of the top 10 clubs in England - what did we do then to improve our fan base? very little indeed is what we did!! - Div 1 crowds at Plough Lane in my opinion will start at 8000 and whether they will increase is largely due to what the club do if/when we are their to attract new people
Hutch (Sunderland give local schools 10000 free tickets a match - anything to stop us doing that?)
- Thursday, January 03, 2002 at 05:56:08 (PST)
Fair enough Ronan, I may have missed the finer points of your statements, but being up here does leave me slightly out of touch, and I don't have a-lot of time to spend on the net, this is one of very few sites that I visit regularly. To be honest, I think BW just enjoys having a go at me because I dare to disagree with him. Really though, is it a fair comparison? Barca, Real and Bayern are all clubs in cities which only have 1, 2 or 3 teams in them. We are competing for fans in a city (granted, a larger city) where there are at least 10 league teams, all of whom have been established professional clubs a-lot longer than we have.
Edinburgh Don
- Thursday, January 03, 2002 at 05:25:15 (PST)
Picking up on the "will they return," debate. I'd love to see fans return to watch the Dons, but a couple of points bother me. The first is that some years back the club carried out a survey of Wimbledon supporters and season ticket holders. I think it was something like 75% lived outside of the old borough of Wimbledon. The second, is it now too late to expect many new fans simply because we return to Merton. Would not those who have no wish to travel to Selhurst picked up on other clubs? We've been away long enough for Fathers to have given up and their sons, older and able to go on their own, decided on nearer neighbours. We have always had a problem attracting big enough crowds, even at Plough Lane many of our games attracted poor crowds. So we have to look at publicity, probably sooner rather than later. Somehow, and it's going to be difficult, we have to start building up the fan base now.
TW
- Thursday, January 03, 2002 at 03:00:49 (PST)
Wiltshire Don, your talking a load of rubbish, only kidding really, but with regards to your statement re the poor attendance in our relegation from the premier year, what you failed to mention or recall at that point in time with the exception of Peter Withe, Olsen had to be the worst manager that Wimbledon have ever had and we had some abismal performances but moving on I along with the Real Hash beleive that the support will increase if we moved back to Plough Lane probably not in the numbers that the RH is talking about but people will come to PL as floating supporters Selhurst is a god awful place with no real threat to the Palace fan base, christ we have 3 major teams not including the Dons within our area but I do beleive that fathers wil take their sons and daughters to PL because they can be guaranteed no aggro, a fairly cost effective day out, a familly atmosphere and it is on their doorstep, what we have to do is make sure that they keep coming but with the enthusism that it is running through most of the Wimbledon fans at this moment in time it IS achievable, so rather than dismiss the RH he needs guiding but you cannot knock his enthusism
Wibbly Don
- Wednesday, January 02, 2002 at 14:46:55 (PST)
Hello Dons, My name is Gunter and I'm from Antwerp-city, Belgium. I am a big fan of the Belgian premiere league club Germinal Beerschot Antwerpen (GBA). But I'm also a big fan of Wimbledon, so i named my youngest boy DON. If you could send me some old magazines, old tickets, shirts,... mail me at gunter.geudens@pandora.be so i can send you a pre-adressed enveloppe. Thanx and hope to visit The Dons soon!
cheers!
Gunter Geudens (gunter.geudens@pandora.be)
Antwerp, Antwerp Belgium - Wednesday, January 02, 2002 at 14:35:53 (PST)
Real Hash.Thanks for your comments which to be honest were very condesending. Still as I've said before everyone is entitled to their own views even if,acording to you, I totally fail to understand things or talk nonsense as you believe.Enough of that as I am not getting into name calling which I have critisised here. To be quite honest I sincerely hope everthing you say is right but having been a fan since the amateur days I just don't see it as I have seen the highs and plenty of lows in that time.Ever since we turned pro we have struggled to get anywhere near the crowds we need to remain viable. So regarding sponorship,third parties etc coming up with cash, what you don't seem to grasp is Leeds,Bolton and even Huddersfield to a lesser extent are more commerical viable than us as more people support them and therefore give their backers more exposure.I am afraid we are in the 2nd/3rd division category when it comes to companies investing money in football clubs. Fans/attendances I still stick with what I said before. You are right things have changed over the last ten years and we haven't benefited so why do you think fans are going to come flooding back now just because we become "THEIR LOCAL TEAM".If you know all these fans who will start supporting Wimbledon again if (hopefully when)we get back to Merton perhaps you should point out to them they should come along to games now or there ain't going to be a Wimbledon to go back to Merton(remember even in our last season in the Premium League, which was only a couple of years ago..not 10..crowds for the lesser lights were pitiful).Sorry but that's something you should understand.Paul basically said the same thing, we want fans now not future promises of fans. Just what sort of average attendance do you think we need to even support an AVERAGE team in the 1st division? Then think is that achievable back in Merton? Well again that's my opinion and I'm sorry Real Hash if you don't like it but as much as I hate to say it I think my views are nearer the truth than yours.Anyone else got anything to add or agree I am talking a load of rubbish?
wiltshire don
- Wednesday, January 02, 2002 at 13:40:48 (PST)
ED - I reckon Brighton probably just reacted from information overload/deficiency. The 'big teams owned by supporters' question is a regular one - which has been answered a million and one times - and is covered in all reports about the Dons Trust (nevermind Supporters Direct, Clubs in Crises etc). Nothing worse for people like ourselves to meet somebody like yourself who hasn't got the message after all our work (this is not an attack on you personally or anyone else). My personal freakouts are 'but a new stadium won't fit on on Plough Lane' and 'people in merton don't want wfc back home again' - things we still see regularly (usually on the OS forum) but can't seem to get peoples heads around the misconceptions.
Ronan (rgwarde@ukgateway.net)
- Wednesday, January 02, 2002 at 11:39:30 (PST)
Never mind the 'distance between Lond and Edi' TW, it's trying to find time to write amongst sorting out the second Edinburgh Don's s***ty nappies and looking after Scotland's canine and feline population! The Goat will appear one day, (possibly, maybe, I hope) and we may even get Paul to review it!
Edinburgh Don
- Wednesday, January 02, 2002 at 10:21:09 (PST)
Thank you very much, Brighton. I didn't know that the clubs you mentioned were owned by their members, that was why I asked the other chap to go into a little more detail (thanks for the website link, Paul). Why do you have to spoil what was becoming a good discussion by being sarcastic? Should I have e-mailed the question to you directly?
Edinburgh Don (edinburghdon@yahoo.co.uk)
- Wednesday, January 02, 2002 at 10:17:37 (PST)
Edinburgh Don, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid and Barcelona are all owned by their supporters. Three of the biggest, most successful clubs in the world. They don't have a great deal of success, do they?!
Brighton Womble (brightonwomble@hotmail.com)
- Wednesday, January 02, 2002 at 09:53:33 (PST)
Fosters Top, what the hell are you talking about? I joined the ctte late this year and hardly knew any of the people involved. The fact that I do now does not mean it's a secret society. Get yourself a brain and stop being so paranoid. In all honesty, yes, in the past it certainly acted too cliquish for me, but a lot of that has changed with the increase in membership and new cttee members, like myself, Ricko and Luke Mackenzie, coming on board. As for ideas, I wasn't suggesting that I was mailed separately with them. I have asked for ideas before and received some good responses. Trouble is, a lot of people still seem to have this weird idea that WISA exists for its own ends. It doesn't, it's democratic and it exists for its members. Grow up and come up with something more original as criticism.
Brighton Womble (brightonwomble@hotmail.com)
- Wednesday, January 02, 2002 at 09:46:21 (PST)
I'm a bit p*ssed off that Nielsen has gone to Norwich, especially after scoring five goals in five games for them. He's never been my favourite player but whenever he played for us I thought he was a bit of a handful for opposition defenders, and he was really good when he filled in on the right wing a few months ago.
Jools
- Wednesday, January 02, 2002 at 01:45:20 (PST)
Absolutely, Paul. It's something Ed Don (and of course you know who he is)and I have been working on for a while. Problem is the distance between London and Edinburgh makes things a little difficult. But maybe soon we will find a solution. Although the MK upset has caused it to be put on the back burner for the moment.
TW
- Tuesday, January 01, 2002 at 11:36:11 (PST)
:) Sounds good it was a bit strange question so I though I would add a bit of humour.
Paul Raymond (webmaster@itmustbedons.com)
Tooting, London England - Tuesday, January 01, 2002 at 10:16:13 (PST)
Paul, I hope not. The Goat is the working title of a book that will,one day we hope, reveal the good, funny and sometimes troubled days of watching the Dons. Be patient as it will be worth reading. When Ed Don can get his pen going!
TW
- Tuesday, January 01, 2002 at 09:39:25 (PST)
TW In the oven Gas Mark 5 for 2 hours served with a selection of Veg also goes well in Curry :)
Paul Raymond (webmaster@itmustbedons.com)
Tooting, London England - Tuesday, January 01, 2002 at 07:50:10 (PST)
Ed Don, Wheres the Goat?
TW
- Tuesday, January 01, 2002 at 07:15:07 (PST)
As you say the first game would be sold out but any owner isint going to spend XX millions on a ground for that basis what we need to hope for is that the launch of The Dons Trust can aim at attracting fans to come from the Merton area to games at Selhurst then via Word of Mouth more people want to come on board the club we have almost got to tottaly rebuild our fan base it's fairly safe to say that the majority of the current fan base will go to games at Selhurst if we play well or not. If we say we have an average of 5,000 fans we should aim to increase it over time clubs like Brentford and Charlton have set targets by the end of month X we want an average home fans of Y if the owners can see this they might think hey Merton can work.
Paul Raymond (webmaster@itmustbedons.com)
Tooting, London England - Tuesday, January 01, 2002 at 07:11:12 (PST)
The comment about the biggest clubs in the world been fan run
this is about Barcelona who are owned by their members. I think
this is one reason why they dont have a shirt sponsor. I think
you can find more info at the Supporters
Direct site.
Paul Raymond (webmaster@itmustbedons.com)
Tooting, London England - Tuesday, January 01, 2002 at 06:57:54 (PST)
With regards to Fulham and the all seater rule when the taylor report was produced it gave lower league clubs longer to become all seater. Fulham were in the third division and they didn't expect clubs to go through the leagues (like they did). I think this is the last season that (at the moment) any standing areas are allowed.
Paul Raymond (webmaster@itmustbedons.com)
Tooting, London England - Tuesday, January 01, 2002 at 06:49:44 (PST)
I understand that both the Boro and Bolton set-up's are just sponsorship deals both for periods of 10 years. Reebok (bolton) is a Bolton company and have been in the area for over 100 years and therefore it's more of a community thing. The BT (Boro) is a bit stranger as their is no obvious tie in only thing I can think of is that it could be that it was at the time of the mobile phone boom and boro were moving to a new ground.
Paul Raymond (webmaster@itmustbedons.com)
Tooting, London England - Tuesday, January 01, 2002 at 06:44:12 (PST)
Wiltshire Don: There are a couple of issues that you just completely fail to understand (with regards to attendances and funding of a stadiu). Firstly, just because we are building Plough Lane, it doesn't ean the owner will have to dish out £30 million. There are several ways of raising revenue. For a start the Dons Trust, secondly giving naming rights to companies (as Bolton and Huddersfield have done, and as Leeds are going to do), thirdly getting rvenue from other investors (read a feature on w&ww about that- there was an investor lined up who was interested in building a stadium in outh london, koppel did not follow it up and guess what- that investor is now building the millenium dome stadium, lottery grants, metro safeway and some kind of free sponsorship. These are all things off the top of my head. These are all things that would considerably reduce the amount of money the 'owner' will have to take out of his pocket. To say that the owner will have to dish out £30 million himself is , to be frank, nonsense. Secondly, attendances. You say, that because we have been away for 10 years and because we only got 7 or 8 k in the top division at PL, we wont get high attendances if we go back. Football has changed a lot in the last 10 years. A LOT. Attendances are massively up and its much more commercial. I know a few people who are Dons fans, but don't go (but would go if we were to get back to Merton). I know people who stopped going when we got relegated, but would start going again if we returned to merton (no matter what division we are in). The fact is that we will be the LOCAL club. So even the people who support Fulham and Arsenal etc are potential spectators (I for example, often go to Kingstonian). The attendances will definitely be larger than they are now (my guess is by about 4k on average...the lure of a new stadium adding to the increase in dons). But we will SELL OUT our first game and after that, it will be a case of persuading people to come back.
The Real Hash
- Tuesday, January 01, 2002 at 05:23:30 (PST)
Ed Don, I get the drift of your reasoning behind seating and segregation but Fulham have been allowed a season to get away with not complying. You're probably right about paper talk but it may just be viable. And at the moment it's better than Selhurst or MK. I remember going to a Ks v Dons game, many years ago at their old ground, when two pesioners got so wound up they wanted to fight. Ended up bashing their walking sticks together. Funny to watch but could be said to be the first of football hooliganism. The Sun claims that the two clubs have been talking for about a month so who knows? The idea of a sponsored stadium would be ideal but where and when? I'm told there is a large area of spare land at the old railway area of Nine Elms. Anybody else know of this?
TW
- Tuesday, January 01, 2002 at 05:16:34 (PST)
Brighton - it's not that we don't want to talk to you or WISA; we (most of the time) enjoy discussing things in this forum - but what's to stop you talking to the WISA commitee about something you've read here? Certain Unnamed, what do you mean about the 'biggest clubs in the world' being owned by the fans? I'm not knocking you, just tell us some more. Don't know about the Kingstonian thing - prob just paper talk. I can't see the FL allowing 1st div games there as there is very little seating and segregation would be a bit of a problem. I still think our best (maybe our only?) chance is the corporate name stadium (maybe Safeway's - have to say I would prefer Puma!) does anyone know about the 'Boro and Bolton setups?
Edinburgh Don (edinburghdon@yahoo.co.uk)
- Tuesday, January 01, 2002 at 04:56:53 (PST)
Wiltshire Don, your comment regarding Kingstonian may have some mileage. There's a story in to-day's Sun which claims the Club are looking at ground sharing with the Ks for a couple of years. Then having a new stadium built locally for both clubs to continue sharing. Don't know if it's got any truth, or it's an old story (because we play reserves/ladies football there), being rehashed but it may just be a flicker of light.
TW
- Tuesday, January 01, 2002 at 03:52:59 (PST)
Nice to see that the latest postings have started addressing the real issues we are faced with rather than just calling each other names.Its encouraging that since I asked the question who will put their hands in their pockets one or two have come up with some views. I wish I had an answer but not sure there is one.I believe whichever way the arbitration panel decide we lose.If they decide in favour of MK everyone loses, football in general as who knows what will follow, and us Dons fans as we wouldn't have a club anymore. But what if the panel rules against MK? Personally I think again that will be of no help to us fans.I say this because I can't see the Nogs hanging around so unless someone, somehow could try and persuade them to stick with it and think about Plough Lane as the future that's us up the stream etc.I can't see this happening as they are business men and I assume they can't see any return on building a stadium at Plough Lane.It has been raised on numerous occasions that moving back to Plough Lane will increase our attendances. My view which some have agreed with is this will not happen to such an extent as to support the club fiancially.Remember we have been away from Plough Lane for over 10 years and even when we left the average attendance was about 7,000 to 8,000 and that was in the old 1st division. Even if we got that if we moved back that might be better than our pathetic attendances at the moment but still not enough to support a team in the 1st division. Think how things have changed, money wise, over the last 10 years. The Nogs would therefore be shelling out something like £30/40 million with no return on the money and apart from that there would be insufficient income to keep the club running on a day to day basis.Would getting into the Premium League help? I'm sure we would get 18,000 odd at Plough Lane but so would you in MK with less fiancial risk to the Nogs.
How about a nice kind benefactor stepping forward and buying the club.You need a very special and dedicated person who would be prepared to wave goodbye to £30 million and there ain't many of them around!!!
So unless the Nogs stay or a rich saviour comes forward I just don't know where we go from here.
A final point.Someone said you can't asset strip players .I'm no accountant but why not. You sell the players, cash goes into the "company", increases share price, company liquidated and shareholders paid out.I'm sure someone will tell me it's not that simple.Well that's my lot but I think the bottom line is with the Nogs in charge from the fans point of view there is no hope and without them there is no hope.I know it has been put forward that the club could start again in the non leagues but you would be right down the bottom and it would be very difficult to work your way up again without......money. Even players at my local Doc Martens league team get paid around £50 a week and some £100.
Talking of non league might be a stupid question but given where I live I haven't visited any non league grounds around South London for years but is there any scope for linking in with Kingstonian/Sutton/Tooting and developing their grounds and co owning?
wiltshire don
- Tuesday, January 01, 2002 at 03:11:26 (PST)
Happy New Year to Paul and all of the IMBD regulars. See you tomorrow (or not as looks more likely.)
Ricko (theangrybear@hotmail.com)
Tunbridge Wells, Kent UK of GB and NI - Monday, December 31, 2001 at 18:55:28 (PST)
BW - will you get off your high horse before you have an accident. If TW and Paul wish to discuss ideas for funding the Club or a stadium then let them. For those of us who don't want WISA telling us what to do all the time, it allows us a chance to see what other loyal Dons think. I am all for what WISA stand for but it is becoming a little secret society and there are a few to many McCains on too many shoulders. Not to put a dampner on things but look at Northampton and Chesterfield, council helped and fans funded respectively and they are in deep Sh*t. York on the brink of extinsion. I am afraid 2 of these 3 any a few more to follow will not exist in the near future.
Fosters Top
- Monday, December 31, 2001 at 12:13:50 (PST)
PITCH INSPECTION TOMORROW 10:30AM
Ricko (theangrybear@hotmail.com)
- Monday, December 31, 2001 at 09:21:08 (PST)
Hey, I've followed trhis club since the Isthmian League days. It's a wonderful club, the best in the country. SAo let's stand together and wish all and yours the very best for a good, prosperous and peaceful New Year. Happy New Year everybody. Good luck and God Bless.
TW
- Monday, December 31, 2001 at 09:20:22 (PST)
Paul, it's because I'm a cttee member aand WANT people to come to me with ideas. There's always loads of discussion but very little action from too many of our fans.
Brighton Womble (brightonwomble@hotmail.com)
- Monday, December 31, 2001 at 08:49:43 (PST)
Couple of thoughts 1) the Fans couldnt run the club hmm maybe I could remind you who owns some of the biggest Clubs in the world its The Fans. I think you would be very surprised what imaginative ideas they could come up with for raising capital and real investment, but then that would involve the CLub working with them rhahtehr than ignoring them, belittling them and generally trying to screw them.
Attnendances have gone down this year, why? would you want to start supporting a Club where the only thing that isnt rotten as far as I can see is the supporters? where the owners have stated they are open to the best financial package whatever the price in terms of location and where the players are petulantly placed up for sale apparently in a fit of pique by an incompetent chairman.
Second point the damage is already to deep as fat as I am concerned they have got to go there is no coming back this time, no peaces, no third chance. I and many others were conned for years by Sam Hammam, we allowed ourselves to be conned by Roekke and Gjelsteen it isnt going to happen again. Maybe we can't have a Premiership Club owned by the fans and community but if the choice is a premiership CLub in Milton Keynes or a lower division or even non league Club owned by us then I know which way I would go. In the immortal words of Blind Date "The choice is yours"
certain unamed womble
- Monday, December 31, 2001 at 07:00:16 (PST)
Do Cellnet and Reebok have a stake in Middlesbrough and Bolton, or do they purely have the rights to the stadium name and shirt sponsorship?
Edinburgh Don
- Monday, December 31, 2001 at 06:06:32 (PST)
We certinally have some music people in the club anyone who has the Dons CD will know that most of the songs on their are fan based, I should know I was a backing singer on Smells like Team Spirit and Chant 88, Never got a credit on the sleve though :( we recorded it in a proper recording studio and Local TV filmed it as well.
Paul Raymond (webmaster@itmustbedons.com)
Tooting, London England - Monday, December 31, 2001 at 02:55:43 (PST)
TW - Liked the idea as you say we need to discuss these things. Please dont think I was saying it wont happen so thats the end of it. In fact thinking back when Millwall first went to their new ground I think they were sponsored by the South London Press. As we have said it's all about attracting the community and unfortunetly when it comes to trying to attract a big name we will have to make it sound like they will be getting more out of it than we will.
Paul Raymond (webmaster@itmustbedons.com)
Tooting, London England - Monday, December 31, 2001 at 02:50:24 (PST)
What if we could have a Fans Anthem? Not a terrace chant but a proper song about supporting football. Amongst our supporters we must have songwriters, muscians and people with access to a recording studio. If we haven't surely we have fans who know someone who knows someone. Call in a favour? If we can get a decent tune with the right words it could be recorded and sold. People will only give so much in straight donations but if fans are buying a product with profits to a fighting fund they may do so more freely. It could be pertinent to our own plight or mean something to all football supporyters throughtout the country. (Just for you Ed Don we could include Scotland).
TW
- Monday, December 31, 2001 at 01:59:41 (PST)
I can't see a newspaper getting in on the deal, AFAIK their profit margins are fairly slim, so they're not going to have a spare 30+million.
If course, one option would for the current owners to do what they had promised, but I can't see that happening, they'd rather shut down this particular franchise of 'soccer' and open a new store somewhere else. After all they don't get enough customers where they are now, and the customers they do have are constantly moaning.
If football were a business then we'd be customers and not fans.
Pete
Peter Bowles (peter@wisa.org.uk)
- Monday, December 31, 2001 at 01:45:47 (PST)
Paul, I agree with you. I was just trying to start a discussion. It's a pity but at the moment I can't see any good money coming in. BW, I don't wish to offend but why should I just e-mail you when this page could get an open foruum going. Perhaps we could all start lateral thinking and brainstorm. We never know, somewhere, somehow, we might just come up with something. We need to keep the whole thing fresh otherwise the protests will just become mundane to non-involved people. I know the old saying about IF and my aunty and uncle but how about we try "What if?"
TW
- Monday, December 31, 2001 at 01:41:11 (PST)
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